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  1. #1
    d4ljoyn is offline Member
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    Default which web technologies

    Do most developers use JSP,Servlet,JSF, or something else? Or is there no consensus?

    Thanks

  2. #2
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Don't look at the majority. They use PHP. :D

    Apache Wicket is nice. But if I chose the web framework for a new project now I would use Scala and Lift.

  3. #3
    d4ljoyn is offline Member
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    Thanks that is a surprising answer I hadn't hear of any of those and I will look that up...

  4. #4
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    Don't look at the majority. They use PHP. :D
    Not in the business world they don't. Java and .NET dominate.

    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    Apache Wicket is nice. But if I chose the web framework for a new project now I would use Scala and Lift.
    Again, not in the business world. They're still "experimental" as far as most development environments are concerned. They may or may not take off, it's too early to tell.

  5. #5
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Popularity rarely correlates with quality. Fortunately, many in the business world understand or start understanding that.

  6. #6
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    Popularity rarely correlates with quality. Fortunately, many in the business world understand or start understanding that.
    Well, firstly you brought up the idea of popularity, pointing to the majority using PHP...however in business that is not the case.

    Secondly, in business the rubbish gets swept out fairly quickly if there's some other, better, proven product out there. It's the "proven" part (tied to "better", obviously) that Lift and Scala have yet to fulfill.

    Put it this way, people were cheering on Ruby a couple of years ago as the Next Big Thing. Didn't happen. Developers are pretty bad at picking what will be a successful product...they have a tendency to pick things that they find fun to work with, which are not always the best.

  7. #7
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Well, firstly you brought up the idea of popularity, pointing to the majority using PHP...however in business that is not the case.
    Why? PHP is widely used in small business. But don't get me wrong. I'm not advising to learn it. :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Secondly, in business the rubbish gets swept out fairly quickly if there's some other, better, proven product out there. It's the "proven" part (tied to "better", obviously) that Lift and Scala have yet to fulfill.
    I don't think that there is any web framework can be considered as proven. Most of the frameworks are either too young or too dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Put it this way, people were cheering on Ruby a couple of years ago as the Next Big Thing. Didn't happen.
    This shows that developers were unsatisfied in what they had.
    Personally I've never thought that ROR or Django is a Next Big Thing. The future is for strong statically typed languages.

  8. #8
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    Why? PHP is widely used in small business. But don't get me wrong. I'm not advising to learn it. :D
    It's used by small businesses because they do not tend to manage their own servers (due to cost), and most of the cheaper hosting does not have Java or .NET on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    I don't think that there is any web framework can be considered as proven. Most of the frameworks are either too young or too dead.
    Anything that's been around for a few years and is used by large numbers of organisations is pretty much proven. Note that "proven" is "proven to be one of the best options around". So yes, there are proven frameworks.

    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    This shows that developers were unsatisfied in what they had.
    Personally I've never thought that ROR or Django is a Next Big Thing. The future is for strong statically typed languages.
    Developers are always unsatisified. Many tend to be script kiddies at heart, or hack 'n' slash coders. It's business that drives what gets used (luckily), since it forces a product proponent to come up with a good reason to move to them. And "but I can code like this" isn't a good reason from a business perspective. The future is whatever provides businesses with value for money...and most of that will come from the architecture side, to be honest.

    SoA for example may or may not do this, depending on what the end cost in terms of infrastructure to support a service system is...along with how much actual reusability happens.

  9. #9
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Anything that's been around for a few years and is used by large numbers of organisations is pretty much proven. Note that "proven" is "proven to be one of the best options around". So yes, there are proven frameworks.
    I think that a technology can be considered as proven after it was successfully used in one project and it was selected for the next project in the same organization. This takes time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Developers are always unsatisified. Many tend to be script kiddies at heart, or hack 'n' slash coders. It's business that drives what gets used (luckily), since it forces a product proponent to come up with a good reason to move to them. And "but I can code like this" isn't a good reason from a business perspective. The future is whatever provides businesses with value for money...and most of that will come from the architecture side, to be honest.
    I don't agree with you. The problem is not that developers choose what they want, but that incompetent developers choose what they want.

  10. #10
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    I think that a technology can be considered as proven after it was successfully used in one project and it was selected for the next project in the same organization. This takes time.
    Which sort of contradicts your previous assertion that there are no proven frameworks...Struts and Spring and Hibernate have all been used more times than you can shake a stick at, and form the core of platforms all over the place.

    Yes it takes time for a new technology to bed down...and that's the point. Developers are often a bit rubbish at identifying which ones will bed down.

    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    I don't agree with you. The problem is not that developers choose what they want, but that incompetent developers choose what they want.
    Beg to differ. It is often the technically competent ones that choose the flashy technologies. The incompetent ones tend to stick to what they know...or in their case, think they know...or simply follow the techies.

    There is a class of developer that likes to push the boundaries, if you like. They are very useful, however they do need reigning in or they have a habit of charging after the new shiny thing...sometimes the shiny thing they themselves have written.

  11. #11
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    Which sort of contradicts your previous assertion that there are no proven frameworks...Struts and Spring and Hibernate have all been used more times than you can shake a stick at, and form the core of platforms all over the place.
    Spring and Hibernate are not web frameworks.
    Struts, well, it is mature. But I wouldn't choose either it or JSF for a new project nowadays.

  12. #12
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    Spring and Hibernate are not web frameworks.
    Struts, well, it is mature. But I wouldn't choose either it or JSF for a new project nowadays.
    Spring has a web framework component.

    What would you use for a new project then?

  13. #13
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    Fubarable is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    What would you use for a new project then?
    I'm totally out of my league in this subject, but I'm curious, Tolls, what would you use for a new web project, and why?

  14. #14
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fubarable View Post
    I'm totally out of my league in this subject, but I'm curious, Tolls, what would you use for a new web project, and why?
    I'm usually called in to fix projects, so I haven't had to make that decision for several years now, but I would choose something that's been round the block and is likely to have a reasonable pool of people that understand the technology. For web stuff this would be either Struts or Spring (I'm really not fussed either way).

    Much as I like to play with new toys (and I don't pass up the opportunity to pick up new stuff on a contract), a paying job is not the place for me to go all experimental. I take the view that it's a mix of something I know works (even if it has its moments) along with something other people will know. After all, at some point I'm not going to be there so having something that is (at least at that point) "common place" is a good thing, in my view.

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    Thanks. That satisfies my curiosity (til I see what vkorenev has to say, that is).

  16. #16
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
    What would you use for a new project then?
    I've become a Scala fan, so my first choice is Lift.
    The second choice is Wicket, because it provides good type safety.
    I have also heard a lot of good about Tapestry which is remarkable for its longevity.

  17. #17
    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by vkorenev View Post
    I've become a Scala fan, so my first choice is Lift.
    The second choice is Wicket, because it provides good type safety.
    I have also heard a lot of good about Tapestry which is remarkable for its longevity.
    The problem is if I were to ask here who could work on a project using Scala I would get pretty much zero hands...which would imply additional cost in setting up a project. For small, maybe one man, proof-of-technology type internal things you can go down that route, but bearing in mind that if the technology you're choosing does not take hold and remains niche then maintenance will be a problem.

  18. #18
    vkorenev is offline Member
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    I understand that. That is why I mentioned Java alternatives.

    But Scala is quickly gaining momentum and going into production. Here is one of examples of its usage that I came across yesterday: Sony Pictures Imageworks - Open Source - Scala Migrations

    Hope a year later there will be a lot of Scala jobs and programmers.

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    Tolls is offline Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by pj0509 View Post
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Indeed.
    (10 chars).

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